TheImagingServices.com

TRANSCRIPT

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  You made the Chiro Hustle. Sit back and learn from the greatest influencers in the profession on the world's Number One Chiropractic Podcast. Before we dive into this powerful episode, please remember to subscribe to our channels and to give us a 5-star rating on iTunes to continue hustling. This episode is sponsored by Imaging Services, Chiro Health USA, Chiro Moguls, Pure Chiro Notes, Titronics, Sherman College of Chiropractic, New Patients in a Box, The Influencer Authority Podcast Training, Mango Voice, Life Chiropractic College West, and M-Sculpt. Let's Hustle!

LUKE MILLETT (PRODUCER):  Hey guys, welcome to Episode 499 of the Chiro Hustle Podcast. I'm your producer, Luke Millett, and here's your host, James Chester.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  So today we have the opportunity of interviewing Michael Tokash. If you want to hear us discuss how amazing the chiropractic profession is, stay tuned. Welcome back! This is another episode of the Chiro Hustle Podcast. They have Mike Tokash coming in from the Greater Philadelphia area. Been with Imaging Services quite some time. They've done a great job. Check out his number on the screen there, 6108123079. Give Mike a text, give Mike a call if you guys have X-ray needs. Reach out to Mike Tokash. He's been an honorable supporter of Chiro Hustle for a long time now as a sponsor. We love him for that. We love the opportunity to bring him on for a show. Today is 499, 499. Big number in the podcast world. Before we get into this episode, I just want to let people know the big why. Why do we do what we do over here at Chiro Hustle? Number one, First Amendment. Freedom of speech is important. That's what the show does. It gives everybody a voice. Second, family health freedom. We believe that that is essential. Medical freedom. That's a big part of chiropractic. Chiropractic is a standalone profession that checks the text and corrects for trivial publicization and then chiropractic philosophy. We do support BJ Palmer Sacred Trust. If you don't know what that means, pause this right now. Go and search on your favorite search engine, B.J. Palmer's last words. It's called the Sacred Trust. You're going to learn a whole lot more about chiropractic than you originally knew. Then we do believe in subluxation based chiropractic. I know it's a big word, but it's important to the history of chiropractic and the future chiropractic and we also believe in Innate intelligence and universal intelligence that when man or woman, the physical gets adjusted, it connects them to man or woman, the spiritual. With that being said, episode 499. Welcome to the show, Mike Tokash.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Hey, thank you, James.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah, I feel like I'm just catching up with an old friend today.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, we've been all so allowed together. I think I've originally met you up in the Berkshire.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Wow. Yeah, that's at least seven or eight years ago.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, yeah.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  It's cool, man. I've seen what you've been doing with imaging services for some time. I know that because of our history together, you got into chiropractic because you're going in and changing processor fluid at chiropractic clinics, right?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah. I saw it in 1975 and my first service was the chiropractors, changing chemistry, they were still hand dipping. But that was KBR back then. I have a film process doing x-ray out of your office. You were a high-end chiropractor. Yeah.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. Yeah. Going back 14 years ago, I started working in chiropractic and if anybody's ever worked in an x-ray room, they know this noise. It's because that's what it does when you're in a processor dark room.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Well, you don't smell it anymore after a while, Jim.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Well, I know that there's been a lot of things going on in the digital world too. So you've been doing the x-ray panels. You've been doing the, I don't know what you call it when you go in and you find somebody's old system and you retrofit it. What is that called?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  So exactly what you just called is it? It's a retrofit. So we could retrofit to any system. Yeah. There's a lot of systems out there, single phase, 1980, 86, we retrofitted seven years ago and it's still running strong.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  That's cool. So if you're out there and you guys have a system set up that you're still in the dark room, reach out to Mike, the numbers on the screen there once again. But you've also gone into more high tech technology within the digital arena.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Absolutely, Jim. So I stuck with 2020 all these years. I knew it was a great product with Opal Rad. But then Connica and Minolta came into play and they looked at it and they said, well, chiropractors going digital, they had no idea. So once they saw that, they said, let's put an effort into it. They got Dan lines on staff, Steve Beal. What can we do? Paint in now's is Nuka, anything you could think of in software, but now comes DVR. So it's X-ray in motion. Chiropractors has been looking at this for a long time. It's not fluoro, which is a great thing. Fluor, high dose. Now it's pulse X-ray. So you're getting these new systems out with the DDR and people can see motion X-ray now.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Absolutely. Kind of like on a movie. What is that doing for practices? How are they able to show that to their patients and what's the outcome?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  That's basically all it is. Jim, you're showing it to your patients. Your patients are really seeing because my wife, she's on the care plan. You've got to keep her common to make her well. So that's showing her exactly her progress, what's happening to her. I just had a doctor on the phone an hour ago and he's like, Michael, the lawyers are going to love this. He needs to perform. Besides showing this patient.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah, and I think there's a lot of cases out there where people don't understand that the tech actually makes you more money. Right. Having better quality imaging, having better quality tech, it is something to add into your business and make it a stronger business. But I think that seeing is believing.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Right. Hey, Jim, you know what? It's not for everybody, right? But you should be doing X-ray in your office. You know, holding your patient. I do not want to, yeah, I'm coming to you as the owner of a company. I'm coming as a salesperson for X-ray. And I'm coming as a patient. Right. On the business side, you know, I don't want to lose any business at all. Sending patients down the street, it's a pain. I'm telling you coming from me is being a patient. You know, chiropractors may not understand because they're going to see another chiropractor. Right. But in my case, if I go see my chiropractor and he says, oh, Michael, you guys, we got to get on the street first. So I'm X-ray is now going to make another appointment. Jim, I'm so busy right now, I can't make another appointment. You know what? I'm not going to go there and I go see a different chiropractor. You know, so that lost revenue dollars when you look at, you know, now with a care plan, 39 hours, 3600 hours, you know, X-ray is just part of it. Right. You are getting money. You're holding me as a patient. Right. And that's what you want to do. You want to make me well. That's what the doctor wants you to.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. And I think the diagnosis of an X-ray film, the clearer it is. Like you said, it helps in whether it's a court case that somebody's been injured or it helps in just like explaining to a mom that if she doesn't correct her sons or scoliosis, it's not going to get any better over time. And you can show that's so clear that people start understanding why it's important to take care of their spines. So I've always thought it was really important. You know, even some, some, uh, jurisdictions in Canada are under fire. Um, being told that they can't take X-rays of, of patients anymore. Unless I don't know, I don't even know what, under what circumstances they're allowing that and, and a province up there. And I think that's a problem. It's like, you know, why would you ever take your, your go to a dentist that wasn't going to take a proper analysis of what your teeth look like through an X-ray or why would you ever take your car to somebody that didn't put it on the little computer system and test it and tell you what your codes are. Oh, absolutely. You know, I think that when we think about it, we do have to really fight for the imaging profession to, to keep its, uh, position within chiropractic. Yeah.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  You know, the changes that are over all these years, Jim, remember, I started in 75, right? You know, chiropractors that were doing an X-ray. You know, you, you, you can't get an image right away, right? You got to take your images. Yeah. We got to develop them. You hope they come out, you know, and then you got to bring the patient back to your evaluation. Now image up in three seconds, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. I mean, me working in, in an office for six years, I, I remember, um, when we had to bring somebody in the next day for their ROF and we had to do a spot shot on them because they moved during the cervical shot of their, of their X-ray. And then we have to go reanalyze it again. And we have to go line draw on it with a grease pencil. And then we have to like read the levels of degeneration and actually report this to them. And it did slow down the process. So, you know, but I used to love it, you know, pulling out that film, looking at it, and then going through, like you said, your wife's on a care plan, going through the process of a care plan with somebody and then reshooting an X-ray and showing them how they have actually progressed with their spinal health, progressed with restoring the curve to their neck, progressed with, you know, fixing the hyperkiphosis and the thoracic spine. If we can show this to people, now it has a lot more like validation to that to where they're saying, wow, I don't only feel better, but look at this guys. And then they go show that report, you know, they go show that report. The side by side to other people. Like you want to get some new patients, like create some X-ray reports and show like pre and post X-ray and people are going to, they're going to show that stuff off because they're proud of it. They've been coming to you two to three times a week for the past four months.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Absolutely. You know, and it's fine in the way products and there's a lot of products out there. But OpalRAD 2020 is the one that works and they're refined it every day with new software, you know, to whatever the chiropractor needs. You know, it's funny. Film and chemistry was always cheap, right? There's only one manufacturer left of chemistry in the United States, right? Their prices went up in the past three years, four different times, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  So as I say, it's a wash.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  You might as well have a dish. For sure. And it's going up again. You know, labor prices went up. There's nobody manufacturing film processors anymore. Everybody's just bandaid and keeping them going. You know, when's the right time to purchase? Now. That's right. I mean, why wait? What are you going to wait until the rates go up again? You know, you know, I don't see anything getting lower in prices. You're out there. Everything's often priced, right? So now's the time to buy. I'm still holding my prices from last year. You know, it's not about me making a dollar on every sale. It's about me learning from chiropractic. The chiropractors are now my salespeople. If I treat them right, then they're going to tell somebody else about me. And Jim, I saw 110 systems a year. I'm one of the biggest said dealers. I'm a small little copy and fill out there. Not no more, but you know, we're we do the whole United States. And I'm a biggest sales right now. We're in I got three going in Colorado. I got five in California. You know, I got four in Texas. You know, I found the best x-ray companies out there because it's not all good companies, right? I found the best ones to do my installs to represent me. So when you're getting installs and you're out of my my area, you got the best extra company out there, you know, that's great, man.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  And I think I have watched you progress and seeing how you built relationships with not only the chiropractic profession and the groups, but also the service handlers during the whole process. And you know, I was I was commented to you before we jumped on today. And you know, I was talking to you about like integrity and people reached out to you that you're not like you said, it's not always about the dollar. It's sometimes it's sometimes just about giving somebody good advice to where they can make an informed decision. Like what can I turn this old x-ray into a new x-ray with a panel? Yes. Can I build out a room in my new office? And can you help me with that? Yes. Can I get new software updates to an existing system? I don't know, but probably yes. Like there's all those things that people probably have questions for. So I love that you're always available. So if people do want to like stay connected with you, I know I usually ask this at the end of the interview, but what's best for people to reach out? I know your phone numbers on the screen there.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Jim, that's it. It's my phone number, 610-812-3079. You know, call me.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  You've made the Chiro Hustle. Sit back and learn from the greatest influencers in the profession on the world's number one chiropractic podcast. This episode is sponsored by Imaging Services, Chiro Health USA, Chiro Mobles, Pure Chiro Notes, Tiatronics, Sherman College of Chiropractic, New Patients in a Box, the Influencer Authority Podcast Training, Mango Voice, Life Chiropractic College West, and MSCALT. Let's hustle.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  All I do when I get on a phone with you, I'm your advisor. I'm free. No George. Okay. I'm going to help you. All the facts, all the information for you to make a decision, Jim. It's your dream. I'm just here for the ride. I just want to get on the journey with you and make it a great experience. And that's what I've been doing. You know, I just love Chiro Project. Let me tell you a great story. So my wife, who came from radiology, doesn't believe in Chiro Project care, right? And she blew out L4 and L5. And she says to me, I'm going to go get surgery done. I said, by who? I'm like in Shaq. I'm out of the loop, right? So she said, oh, the orthopedic surgeon. I said, what's she saying on recovery? She's about 40%. I said, look, you know what I do. Please go see a chiropractor. I'm going to give you a name. Just go have a consultation. And Jim, it's really funny. So she comes home. She says, oh my God. She says, he wants to see me for nine months, right? And he wants 3600 hours for a care plan. I said, so what's wrong with that? You know, it's a big thing. He blew it on 4 and L5. He's not recovering one day. So she says, well, it's a dollar. I said, do you know our insurance is $10,000 out of pocket? So take the dollars out of it. I said, here, I'll be happy if you do this. I'll support you 100%. Go see the chiropractor. A couple of visits. If you're not happy with that and you want to go get surgery, then go get surgery. I'll support you 100%. Jim, it's really funny. So 90 days go by, right? I saw the check was right now, the check book, right? And she's not saying nothing. So we're sitting there at dinner one night and she says, you never asked me about the chiropractor. Just like you said, I didn't need to. She said, why not? I said, because a minute ago, you're a nice influencer. And I think you had more energy. And I could see positive things happening. She said, well, I don't understand these other things that are happening. My feet don't hurt me anymore. My head H went away. I said, it's chiropractic care. I said, I've been telling you for years. I go to conferences. I love conferences. I love just to go to conference, get adjusted by a different chiropractor. Because there's different techniques. And so at the end of the story is, all of a sudden, I could hear a how or any other room the next day. And my son came in. I'm like, man, what's going on now? I go walking in there. My granddaughters are there, seven, eight years old. And my wife's like, you better go see the chiropractor now and take them girls. So it's like, that is so rewarding, Jim, because I just love chiropractic care. The other thing about chiropractic, Barbara Eaton, Daniel Bay, you got these mentors out there that are taking you to the next level. And I follow them. I took my business, 1 million to 5 million and 3 and 1 half years, because of these leaders of chiropractic. I'm a business. I relay myself to chiropractic. And there's no way you should be failing in chiropractic. You got a whole medical industry out there behind you. I mean, you notice, Jim, you go to orthopedic. These other medical doctors do not do nothing for each other.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Well, I also feel like when people go to mainstream medical system, it's just a weird experience. Like it's not personable and it's very distant. And you don't get that with the chiropractic profession. You get a hands-on exam. You get some x-rays. You get consultation time. You get time with a doctor that's really interested in all aspects of your life. Oh, absolutely. The way that you take care of yourself, the way that you are capable of doing stuff, obviously chiropractors help with a lot of people. They're first inclination to go to your chiropractors because they have a headache. They're feet hurt. Something's going on. They have neck pain or back pain. And then they go in and the doc gives them that consultation like you do for your clients. Let me see what's going on. I'll tell you if there's any concern. I'll tell you how much concern there is if I find some. And then I'll tell you if I can help you. And then that is the relationship business. And that's why I think chiropractors do so well. Not only with, like you said, the influencers in the profession do well helping more people, but the people out there that are at the benches adjusting people, they do really well because they're actually paying attention to people. And then what happens is they get through to somebody like your wife, the woman of the family. And now the woman is the influencer of that whole unit. And now she's saying to the grandkids and to the kids, go see the chiropractor.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was always told one patient at a time, right? Man, that's the way it is. One patient at a time. But when you get that one patient, it's just like when I sell a system and I do really good with the chiropractor and he's really happy, then he's telling other people about me, right, of the doctors. So same thing with the patients left, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. I know I was asking you off camera, like some of the events that are coming up for you. So people, if they wanted to come find you, where they might be able to get in touch with you at a conference.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, Jim, I created an S-ray company different than any other company out there. You know, I come from a line of contractors. So I help you, we are building. I told you you're electrician. Once that starts that process, then I'm all in. They don't even bother you until the time we come in, install and train you, right? So, you know, all them aspects, it's only one phone call away, right? So once I got started with my conferences, I started in Pennsylvania, then I went up to Massachusetts, you know, now I'm in Maine, you know, Connecticut. I got to come up Connecticut. You know, then I became part of, you know, dynamic essentials, exclusive, right? Couple conferences there a year. Then my Ohio, I sent you at the mile high, right? You know, if I can't make it after I'm sending, you know, the best people I could find and represent us, right? You know, so there's a lot of conferences that, you know, Florida, you know, I'll become a remarkable practice and other big one, exclusive to them. You know, so I kind of got the exclusivity because the leaders of chiropractic looked at me personally and said, well, this guy believes in us and this guy's going to come through and we don't have to worry about any repercussions of anything else, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. And the thing I kind of wanted to touch on is you always give back to. Yeah, I like it. Like any conference that you're working with, any group that you're working with, any organization that you're working with, you always support the people that are supporting you.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, you know, because, you know, I want to give back. I want that organization to thrive, right? So like DE, the next DE meeting, you know, Hans is going to go to that one. He's going to hand them a 1500 hour check. I'm going to Connecticut, the council up there, you know, they're giving me all their, everybody tends their conferences by for me. So I give back, I'm going up there with a 3000 hour check. The last conference was a 5000 hour check. You know, it's not a payoff. It's something to say here. Here's some money back. Thank you, you know, for choosing me. But I want you to grow. I want you to get bigger. I need you to fight the government, you know, they get kind of bribed to get out their way belongs, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah, for sure. I think that that's a really good initiative. So do you guys have anything going on promos? Any specials going on to the next quarter?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, what I did. So manufacturers, as everybody has increased pricing, I'm still at the same pricing I was last year. And what I wanted to throw out there, anybody watching this video, if they call me and said, they sold me on Kyra Hustle, I'm going to throw back another 1000 hour discount and plus there's a rebate going for 1000 hours. Jim, there's no reason why you stay with film when you can be digital at the same price. You know, it's going to speed your practice up. It could be more credibility. You're going to see a lot more in the images. You can do so many different line drawings. I mean, I just don't understand it. But, you know, hey, you're still doing processing. I still do chemistry. But, you know, I have one guy left when we had five guys, right? So it's all going digital. And on the DDR, the full motion, there's a big special on that because Jim, that's really the product. But it's for some chiropractors, right? We're looking at, you know, a C-arm or a DM Max at a hundred and something thousand hours. This is priced less under a hundred, you know, so they came through. But not everybody can afford that. But you know what? A digital panel showing me a real good x-ray is still tops in the field, right?

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah. So 20 years from now, thinking about the profession, where do you see the profession going? And where are you inside the profession?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Well, I'm so, you know, I'm 67 right now. You know, so 87, you know, maybe in a wheelchair, maybe have a crotch, whatever. But I just think chiropractic is taking such big steps by that time. Well, it should be blowing everything out. You would think right now people would want to go see a chiropractor, you know, with all the things going on with the pandemic and lies and things going on, you know, nobody knows what the truth is, but chiropractic is a truth.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah, and that's why, you know, the show that we've been putting on for the past five and a half years doing these interviews, the way that we do is to preserve the truth of chiropractic and preserve the message of chiropractic to where if anybody ever needed a resource to like get re-inspired as to what the profession is doing, they can come in and listen about marketing, they can come in and listen about the tech, they can come in and listen to somebody that may have passed on, unfortunately, you know, that happens. And, you know, I think that that's the brilliant part about what we both done is we stuck with something, we found a necessity within side of chiropractic and we are advocates and we are supporters. And I think that when you bring guys like us together that have a lot of love for something that is the truth and the medical world, and unfortunately, chiropractic is lumped into the medical world, but it is a standalone profession that's a healing art. And a lot of times people don't understand that, they're like, oh, like your wife, I don't believe in chiropractic, you know, when I speak at conferences now, Mike, it's hilarious. I tell people chiropractic is in a belief system. The Easter Bunny and Santa Claus is a belief system. I tell them that chiropractic is a healing art. Like there's a big difference in between a belief and an art of healing. And I think that a lot of times when people think about belief system, like, I don't believe in that. Well, you don't have to believe in it. Like said, Williams, a guy that founded dynamic essentials, he would always drop keys at his assemblies that he would, I don't know how frequently he held them, but he was the guy that started life university down in Marietta, but he would have this assembly and he would always go in front of there and drop these keys. And it was like a known thing. Sid Williams did this, but he would say, you don't have to believe in chiropractic. It's just like gravity. It works whether you believe it or not. It works. It definitely works. And it gets people better faster. Yeah. And people don't have to get hacked on or they don't have to get on the pill mill. Like they don't like waste their life. They actually have a better quality of life. They actually have a better return on their later years in life. They're not sedentary and broke down and pain and sore. Like they're out doing stuff that they like. And when they go to that retirement age, they're not retiring to complacency and sedentary lifestyle. They're retiring into quality of life with more years ahead of them that they're gonna enjoy.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah. And I think I'm adding something to their life also. Let me grab something for one second.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Sure. Mike's always on the move. 610-812-3079. Give him a text right now.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  So Jim, here's an act right, right? Yeah. Right? Work quality. You know, I was at a conference in Connecticut. And a doctor walked up to me and he says, Michael, you added 10 years of my life. And he's not gonna do that. I'd love it, but how do I do that? He says, I would put my film in, you know, and then the film becoming out. I'd be saying, oh baby, come on, come on, come on. And they'd be like, shit. Good, then he had to bring me back to take another act right. Right? So he says, Michael, he says, my life is easier right now with digital act right because now, you know, bang, three seconds image up. I don't even take another act right. I know what's going on. I throw him right on the dressing table. You know, so we kind of locks him right in, right then and there, you know. So, I mean, that's just a great thing. I just, I'm so glad I picked this profession. Yeah, I could have been the carpenter, I could have been the other things, you know. But this profession, it's just rewarding. And, you know, I see how it's progressing and it's just amazing, Jim.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Yeah, there's an old saying that chiropractic gives you years to your life and life to your years. Yeah. And I think that chiropractic is rewarding and it is important. And it is something that we generationally need to pass down. So, we're at the last couple minutes of the interview today. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to talk about their audience today?

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Well, all I would like to really say is just call me, just have the conversation, right? There's no obligations. You know, Jim, there's been, there's been a few times I said these doctors, look, that looks like a great deal to me. Go ahead and buy it. They want to buy some music equipment. But, you know, send me pics of it. You know, it's a 1979 room. Even a 2000 room seems like it's pretty no. Jim is 23 years old, right? Life span of x-rays is only 25.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  I can't believe when I meet a kid and they're born in 2000, like 2000 something.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Yeah, right. You know, and, you know, I kind of relate to, you know, what you're doing because I'm the business then too. You know, so on backups and anything else, you can do a pack system where you're sending your images. You know, I'm just here, I had the knowledge, get the knowledge from me. If you work with me, great. If you decide to go somewhere else, that's great too. I just know I helped you. That's what I want to do.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Well, Mike, you're a phenomenal advocate for the chiropractic profession. I appreciate you jumping off me. It's really cool to hear that your wife is getting some good care. Absolutely. It's nice to hear that you're supporting, giving back, the profession supporting you. And you're in it for the long term. So you're right chiropractic is an amazing profession. And I appreciate you being on with us today, episode 499.

MICHAEL TOKASH (GUEST):  Oh, great number. I think I told 409, I spent my 110 pounds a year. So, you know, I'd just probably be able to, a quarter of what is sold in the United States, right? And there's a reason for that, you know, like you said, I'm just here, I'm an advocate. Please just call me. You know, great to see you again. Always. So I'm just here.

JAMES CHESTER (HOST):  Well, once again, guys, it's 610-812-3079. Shoot my protect, shoot my recall. And let's see if we can be your digital solutions team with X-ray in your office. So with that being said, I'm going to close out by telling you all, you're just one story away. Keep hustling. I'll see you guys in the next episode.  Thanks for listening to Chiro Hustle. Don't forget to subscribe and check back next week to continue hustling.

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